#UFchat – chat for urban fantasy writers

Transcript for September 18, 2010: Alpha Males, Beta Boys & Other Bad Boys in UF – PART 2

Today’s Topic is PART TWO: Alphas, betas, bad boys, heroes & anti-heroes – who’s REALLY tough?

Official UFchat questions in YELLOW for easier reading.

Resources/ topic-related links are in BLUE.

Lots of excellent comments and a ton of thoughts this week so is a big one! We went about ten minutes over (with a warning that we just might near the end) and resources were tweeted after that, so if you had to leave at the 1 hour mark you may have missed a few things. There was obviously a lot of room for further discussion too.

If anyone wants to expand their thoughts in a blog post (or essay) in the coming weeks let me know and I’ll promote it. 🙂

Primer for #UFchat early birds: Beta vs Alpha vs Gamma Heroes http://bit.ly/9WjicF

Patti_OShea: RT @inkgypsy: 1/2 hour to #UFchat! The men duke it out today – who’s really tough? Alphas, betas, loners or someone else altogether…? 3pm PST/ 6pm EST
9:28 pm Ben_Aaronovitch: Last day of the day job today and a long awaited return to full time writing (I thought I’d get the shilling done early) #ufchat
9:33 pm Ben_Aaronovitch: #UFchat currently reading UF by Lauren Beukes – Zoo City – recomended.
9:40 pm UF_Chat: @Ben_Aaronovitch I really want to read that! Looks seriously awesome – you have an ARC? Or isit out already? #UFchat
9:41 pm Ben_Aaronovitch: @UF_Chat It’s out in the UK #UFchat
9:44 pm UF_Chat: 15 mins to #UFchat! What is an Alpha anyway? Does tough = alpha? What’s a beta? Are our heroes heroic? We’ll find out today! 3pmPST/ 6pmEST
9:44 pm inkgypsy: 15 mins to #UFchat! What is an Alpha anyway? Does tough = alpha? What’s a beta? Are our heroes heroic? We’ll find out today! 3pmPST/ 6pmEST
9:45 pm rcmurphy: @inkgypsy Lmfao found him. He forgot about #UFchat. I think he’s going to try and catch the end.
9:45 pm rcmurphy: RT @UF_Chat: 15 mins to #UFchat! What is an Alpha anyway? Does tough = alpha? What’s a beta? Are our heroes heroic? We’ll find out today! 3pmPST/ 6pmEST
9:59 pm jsmithready: Hello to #UFchat! I can only stay until the DH arrives with pizza, in 10-15 minutes. Then we’re watching SERENITY.
9:59 pm UF_Chat: 3, 2… and we are now live with #UFchat! What is an Alpha? A beta? Does tough = alpha? Are our heroes heroic? We?ll find out today! #UFchat
10:00 pm AnassaRh: Here and ready for #ufchat!
10:00 pm StephanieLMcGee: Hey all! I made it! Woot! #UFCHat
10:00 pm UF_Chat: @jsmithready *waves* Great to see you! Did you consciously figure out hierarchies when planning your vamps? #UFchat
10:00 pm Cameron_Haley: Hi, all! #UFchat
10:01 pm UF_Chat: TODAY?S TOPIC: Beta males, loners, bad boys & other UF males take on the Alphas ? let?s talk tough ? guy style (Part 2) #UFchat
10:01 pm rbwood: #UFChat finally made it!
10:01 pm UF_Chat: Hi all! @AnassaRh @StephanieLMcGee #UFchat
10:01 pm AlyxDellamonica: #UFchat Hello, everyone!
10:02 pm jsmithready: @UF_Chat Hierarchies? No, not really. My vamps are communal bc they have to be to survive. Older ones are physically stronger, tho. #UFchat
10:02 pm rcmurphy: My ass-kicking boots have been replaced with cow slippers today. Hope no one minds. lol #UFchat
10:02 pm UF_Chat: @Cameron_Haley Hi! Congrats on the release (1st time seeing you live since sorry) – you’re prob knee deep in the next bk, yes? #UFchat
10:02 pm UF_Chat: @AlyxDellamonica Hi! Great to see you! We’re part 2 of alphas & betas today but we’ll cover more too. 🙂 #UFchat
10:03 pm UF_Chat: @rcmurphy Cow kicking can be dangerous… 😉 #UFchat
10:03 pm jsmithready: @UF_Chat Then again, older ones are also, um, mentally challenged. So leaders tend to be middle-aged, LOL. PS Thx for the greeting! #UFchat
10:03 pm rbwood: @RCMurphy #UFChat Oooo. Alpha to Beta in one tweet! 🙂
10:03 pm jsmithready: @Cameron_Haley Hey, congrats on the release! #UFchat
10:03 pm rcmurphy: @rbwood I’m good like that. 😉 #UFchat
10:03 pm Cameron_Haley: @UF_Chat Thanks! Knee deep in line edits on Book 2, actually. 🙂 #UFchat
10:04 pm UF_Chat: @jsmithready Does stronger = in charge – ie muscle = power? #UFchat
10:04 pm kjhatch: Hello #UFChat! I hope everyone’s having a good day today
10:04 pm Cameron_Haley: @jsmithready Thank you so much! It’s very exciting! #UFchat
10:04 pm UF_Chat: @Cameron_Haley That’s one of the questions – alpha females – some people DO discuss alpha females actually… #UFchat
10:04 pm UF_Chat: 2 quick recap questions to get us going: #UFchat #UFchat
10:04 pm elizabethkarr: Hey there, everyone. #UFchat
10:05 pm rbwood: @Cameron_Haley #UFchat. Absolutely! In the Dresden files, Murphy is an Alpha female to Harry’s Beta (Apha wannabe). 🙂
10:05 pm StephanieLMcGee: A friend of mine and I once thought to write a story where the sidekick gets the girl, not the hero. Can that even happen? #UFCHat
10:05 pm jsmithready: @UF_Chat If it’s a physical battle, yes. But leadership is more than physicality. Also personality and mental stability. #UFchat
10:05 pm UF_Chat: QA: Last week gen. agreed UF Alphas need revisit. Let?s have another look @ definitions. Describe ?alpha? (guy/girl) – esp. re UF. #UFchat
10:05 pm AlyxDellamonica: Is listening to The Beautiful South and checking out #UFchat.
10:06 pm DEcharacters: @StephanieLMcGee that sounds like a good idea. sidekicks need love too #UFchat
10:06 pm jsmithready: @UF_Chat Love the alpha female! & Murphy a great example. @rbwood #UFchat
10:06 pm Polenth: I generally find alpha males too arrogant/dominating to identify with. #UFchat
10:06 pm Jinxie_G: RT @UF_Chat: 3, 2… and we are now live with #UFchat! What is an Alpha? A beta? Does tough = alpha? Are our heroes heroic? We?ll find out today! #UFchat
10:06 pm Jinxie_G: RT @UF_Chat: TODAY?S TOPIC: Beta males, loners, bad boys & other UF males take on the Alphas ? let?s talk tough ? guy style (Part 2) #UFchat
10:06 pm sirayn: @Cameron_Haley perhaps UF is so dominated by female readers + writers that male characters are the “other” to an extent. #UFchat
10:06 pm StephanieLMcGee: @DEcharacters It was after watching Sahara and Al tells Dirk he’ll take care of the bomb and for Dirk to get the girl. Good friend. #UFCHat
10:06 pm jsmithready: @UF_Chat Define how it should be or how it usually is? #UFchat
10:07 pm annikkawoods: RT @Polenth: I generally find alpha males too arrogant/dominating to identify with.<—THIS. So much this. #UFchat
10:07 pm MonicaEPierce: Hi All, thought I’d stop in and check out #UFchat.
10:07 pm Ben_Aaronovitch: @StephanieLMcGee Big Trouble In Little China & Lord of the Rings #UFCHat
10:07 pm UF_Chat: @jsmithready So stability is important to your guys – because your vamps have the problem of ‘fading’? #UFchat
10:07 pm StephanieLMcGee: RT @annikkawoods: RT @Polenth: I generally find alpha males too arrogant/dominating to identify with.<—THIS. So much this. #UFCHat
10:07 pm shadowflame1974: #UFchat alpha is top dog, smart, strong, disguises weakness under gruff char. Usually has something/one to protect
10:07 pm AlyxDellamonica: @StephanieLMcGee Sure, why not? Lots of possible reasons could keep Alpha for getting the love interest. #UFchat
10:07 pm jsmithready: YES. RT @annikkawoods: RT @Polenth: I generally find alpha males too arrogant/dominating to identify with.<—THIS. So much this. #UFchat
10:07 pm sirayn: on the subj of alpha males in UF, just read r vincent’s stray, in which female protag systematically dominated by men around her. #UFchat
10:08 pm sirayn: #UFchat which is a big deal for me when men in question are supposed to be sympathetic – father, love interest, brothers, etc.
10:08 pm rbwood: #UFChat Alpha characters need beta traits to keep it interesting. Male and Female.
10:08 pm elizabethkarr: @rcmurphy We need your kinda alpha males IRL. alpha females 2. #UFchat
10:08 pm sirayn: #UFchat male characters who isolate female protag, threaten her, undermine her, limit her ambitions, etc = major turnoff for me.
10:09 pm StephanieLMcGee: @AlyxDellamonica This is true. I hadn’t thought of Sam and Rosie. Or Aragorn and Arwen (when you look @ appendices or movie). THx. #UFCHat
10:09 pm rcmurphy: We did cover Alpha males being jerks last week. It is a stereotype that was agreed needs to be abolished. Asshats- not sexy, folks #UFchat
10:09 pm elizabethkarr: RT @AnassaRh: QA: Alphas are in charge, confident, act masculine regardless of gender. Good leaders. < yeah. #UFchat
10:09 pm kjhatch: To me an an alpha character is simply one that is given top-respect by its peers. There can me multiple alphas with multiple groups #UFChat
10:09 pm jsmithready: @UF_Chat Stability = survival, which = getting food + not being discovered, i.e., staked. Fading def a consideration, though.#UFchat
10:09 pm StephanieLMcGee: @sirayn So agree with that. #UFCHat
10:10 pm sirayn: #UFchat it’s difficult to like male characters who literally lock the female lead in a cage until she conforms to expected wife/mother role.
10:10 pm UF_Chat: Agree people unconscious. seem 2 want RT @rbwood: #UFChat Alpha characters need beta traits to keep it interesting. Male & Female. #UFchat
10:10 pm UF_Chat: QB: Did anyone blog on urban fantasy alpha males or related topics this week? Please share & link now. #UFchat
10:10 pm sirayn: #UFchat I feel like these characters are presented/intended as alpha males, but in fact come off as misogynist in the extreme.
10:10 pm QTGamer86: RT @UF_Chat – QB: Did anyone blog on urban fantasy alpha males or related topics this week? Please share & link now. #UFchat
10:10 pm UF_Chat: Since continuing last weeks discussion of Alphas, betas and other bad boys, Question numbering will now continue from last Q. #UFchat
10:10 pm Polenth: @UF_Chat I don’t think a good leader in RL is arrogant or dominating either… RL leaders are firm, but they listen and delegate. #UFchat
10:11 pm rbwood: @RCMurphy Agreed. I Love Alpha male asshats who are beaten by Alpha women. Awesome. #ufchat
10:11 pm kjhatch: I don’t see the alpha role as a result of physical strength or political leadership; it’s an acknowledgment from others #UFChat
10:11 pm JulieeJohnsonn: @sirayn Agree! I wouldn’t read that at all. I gravitate to the strong female leads… #ufchat
10:11 pm jsmithready: Personally I find the idea that alpha = bully so frustrating. An alpha should not have to resort to that. Should lead by example. #UFchat
10:11 pm sirayn: #UFchat which imo is a frequent problem with alpha males – can an alpha male be alpha without dominating (oppressing) the female character?
10:11 pm UF_Chat: Reminder – S = statement & will be followed by a related ‘Q’ = question . 🙂 #UFchat
10:11 pm DEcharacters: at some point, i’m going to do a theme week about alphas and betas. seems a useful topic #UFchat
10:11 pm UF_Chat: S: Discussed alphas, incl. metrosexual, possibilities for gay alphas & a bit on betas -let?s look at other boys & compare/contrast. #UFchat
10:12 pm UF_Chat: Q10: Other than betas what kinds of other males are often used as characters in UF? #UFchat
10:12 pm JulieeJohnsonn: @kjhatch yes, its also a mindset…a confidence, ability to govern & lead, do what needs to be done, etc…#ufchat
10:12 pm StephanieLMcGee: Read 3rd quote down. (Scroll downward a tad to see the quotes section.) It’s the last character speech. http://tinyurl.com/29ko7p7 #UFCHat
10:13 pm GraylinFox: sticking my head into #UFChat !!
10:13 pm kjhatch: Basically a guy can’t just walk in and say he’s the new alpha in town; the locals have to agree/step down #UFChat
10:13 pm AlyxDellamonica: @Polenth Agree. It takes more strength of character to listen and/or admit mistakes than it does to boss people around. #UFchat.
10:13 pm JulieeJohnsonn: the best alphas are ‘reluctant heros’ in my opinion…makes them a little less of a stereotype #ufchat
10:13 pm UF_Chat: @DEcharacters Agreed – that would be great – lots of questions and gray areas in this one. Please let me know when you do @inkgypsy #UFchat
10:13 pm annikkawoods: @jsmithready I agree with you, but so many of the male leads in UF seem to be bullies. #UFchat
10:13 pm sirayn: #UFchat or to rephrase, can people perceive a male character as alpha *unless* he dominates women? is gender dynamic necessary?
10:14 pm UF_Chat: @StephanieLMcGee What is the quote about? #UFchat
10:14 pm StephanieLMcGee: RE: Q10 There’s the mentor. #UFCHat
10:14 pm StephanieLMcGee: @UF_Chat It’s a quote from the TV show Bones about anthropology’s view on alpha male. #UFCHat
10:14 pm rbwood: @UF_Chat Q10 Answer-Comidy relief, Mentor (former Alpha), Side kick…#UFchat
10:15 pm shadowflame1974: @annikkawoods Maybe they don’t know how to handle strong fem. Prot. 😉 rely on old tactics to bring her/him into wanted role #UFchat
10:15 pm UF_Chat: Q10: (rephrase) So other than alphas & betas (2B discussed) what kinds of other males are typically fully fleshed characters in UF? #UFchat
10:15 pm MargoWest: @sirayn #UFchat I think domination is part of an alpha character, but it can be dominating men instead of women.Showing leadership basically
10:15 pm UF_Chat: @StephanieLMcGee Oh xlnt thanks! #UFchat
10:16 pm AnassaRh: Q10: There’s the geek. Rarely learn much about him beyond “good with research for hero”. #ufchat
10:16 pm AlyxDellamonica: #UFchat I don’t think we have to automatically make a male character choose between misogyny and wimpdom.
10:16 pm SpiceBites: Hi all! Are we doing betas today? #ufchat
10:16 pm MishaPolonsky: Cheers everyone. New to #ufchat – catching up on posts right now.
10:16 pm rcmurphy: Often there is a father figure. Possibly a previous alpha that has settled down. New one is techo-wizards. Not nerds we saw before #UFchat
10:16 pm DEcharacters: it’s a guess, but since it was in the overall topic for today. Q10 – the loner? #UFchat
10:16 pm sirayn: #UFchat another interesting quality I’ve noticed is violence + sadism. alpha males often hyperviolent, + sometimes they torture people.
10:17 pm UF_Chat: @AnassaRh The computer genius back-up? #UFchat
10:17 pm GraylinFox: RT @UF_Chat: Q10: So other than alphas & betas (2B dis.) what kinds of other males are typically fully fleshed characters in UF? #UFchat
10:17 pm Carlsmilz: RT @jsmithready: Personally I find the idea that alpha = bully so frustrating. An alpha should not have to resort to that. Should lead by example. #UFchat
10:17 pm UF_Chat: Q10a: Anyone ever seen an ?omega male? ? bottom of totem pole ? used as a fully fleshed character in UF? Thoughts? #UFchat
10:17 pm AnassaRh: Absolutely! RT @AlyxDellamonica: #UFchat I don’t think we have to automatically make a male character choose between misogyny and wimpdom.
10:17 pm sirayn: #UFchat look at bones in night huntress series, most male characters in vincent’s stray, etc.
10:17 pm kjhatch: @jsmithready alpha = bully is also such a cheap stereotype. Not all people in power beat or manipulate others to get there. #UFChat
10:17 pm Cameron_Haley: Struggling: This discussion makes it sound as though char relationships in UF are all about domination and power. Maybe I’m naive. #UFchat
10:17 pm rbwood: RT @AlyxDellamonica #UFchat I don’t think we…make a male character choose between misogyny and wimpdom. <-Shades of gray makes a character
10:17 pm lccarson: RT @AlyxDellamonica: #UFchat I don’t think we have to automatically make a male character choose between misogyny and wimpdom.
10:17 pm sirayn: #UFchat many seem to think that their darker side makes them unclean, unworthy of the female lead, + must be hidden.
10:17 pm AnassaRh: I think we occasionally get “annoying, nosy neighbour” types too, don’t we? #ufchat
10:18 pm UF_Chat: @rcmurphy Also known as uber-alpha in some series (well not specifically but essnetially treated as same) – xpt uber not ‘retired’. #UFchat
10:18 pm jsmithready: Arrgh, sorry, have to go! Pizza and husband will wait for no #UFchat to end. 😦 Will be out of town the next 2 Saturday nights.
10:18 pm GraylinFox: RT @UF_Chat: Q10a: Anyone ever seen an ?omega male? ? bottom of totem pole ? used as a fully fleshed character in UF? Thoughts? #UFchat
10:18 pm rcmurphy: Omega males would probably run more towards junkies and that sort. (in my mind) I’ve seen a couple flourish in UF. #UFchat
10:19 pm sirayn: #UFchat which plays off stereotype of delicate woman who faints at the sight of blood, regardless of what female lead is actually like …
10:19 pm shadowflame1974: #UFchat Omega female on occasion but not much of a male fully fleshed out. Q10a
10:19 pm rbwood: @UF_Chat #UFchat 10a Answer – Neville Longbottom…Know it’s not UF, more YA but he is a perfect example of a Omega…until the end.
10:19 pm UF_Chat: @Cameron_Haley Part of the reason we’re discussing -not easy to make well rounded leader w/out cookie cutter or boring perfection #UFchat
10:19 pm Ben_Aaronovitch: @UF_Chat Q10: Magic Negro character turns up quite alot (not always black) #UFchat
10:19 pm DEcharacters: might use an omega male in a story, if I can put up with a love triangle element in a story. but don’t know of published ones #UFchat
10:19 pm SpiceBites: RT @JulieeJohnsonn: the best alphas are reluctant heros in my opinion…makes them a little less of a stereotype #ufchat
10:19 pm StephanieLMcGee: @UF_Chat You’re welcome. Don’t know how accurate the info is, but the show does have an anthropologist as consultant. #UFCHat
10:19 pm AnassaRh: Or the guy with the library, or the guy who invents weapons. RT @UF_Chat: @AnassaRh The computer genius back-up? #UFchat
10:19 pm UF_Chat: S: By definition alphas are not alone – they shoulder responsibility for those under them, in their care. They?re not ?lone wolves?. #UFchat
10:20 pm AnassaRh: @Cameron_Haley I think that’s one way of reading rltnships, and certainly common. But no, not all, not by long shot. #ufchat
10:20 pm SpiceBites: Patricia Brigg’s Samuel in the Mercy series doesn’t read like a strict Alpha to me #ufchat
10:20 pm sirayn: @MargoWest #ufchat personally, I find alpha males much more impressive when smart/canny enough to *avoid* pointless pissing contests.
10:20 pm UF_Chat: BTW interesting theory on omegas – bottom of totem pole but also balances out pack too. P. Briggs exploring idea in current series #UFchat
10:20 pm StephanieLMcGee: If you look at the animal kingdom, the alpha male is the one who leads. He’s in charge of the protection of the herd/pack. #UFCHat
10:21 pm Polenth: @Cameron_Haley I don’t think they should be all about power, but dominating alpha is a common trope. Esp. if there’s heavy romance. #UFchat
10:21 pm UF_Chat: @SpiceBites Yes – he’s more the loner – which is Q11. 😉 #UFchat

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10:21 pm StephanieLMcGee: RE Q11: Look @ Jacob from Twilight. He goes off on his own as his own alpha, but has to come back and work w/ pack to lead. #UFCHat
10:21 pm sirayn: @JulieeJohnsonn I love strong female leads! any recommendations? I’m newish to UF, only discovered it recently. #ufchat
10:21 pm AlyxDellamonica: #UFchat Other UF types: BFF with unrequited crush on heroine. Creepy shopkeeper. Intolerant bully. Sensitive victim gothboy.
10:22 pm kjhatch: @UF_Chat A10: With female protagonists there’s the (boy)friend who competes with the Alpha for the protagonist’s love. #UFChat
10:22 pm rbwood: @UF_Chat #UFchat S: (A to Q11): Alpha ia a leader. Lone Wolf can’t handle that responsibility.
10:22 pm rcmurphy: Alpha is a social term given by the “pack”. A lone wolf declares himself alpha & must only worry about coving his own ass. #UFchat
10:22 pm SpiceBites: RT@MargoWest personally, I find alpha males much more impressive when smart/canny enough to *avoid* pointless pissing contests. Yes! #ufchat
10:22 pm moonsanity: @UF_Chat A lone wolf is just that– lone, not responsible for the protection others; just himself or herself. #UFchat
10:23 pm UF_Chat: Q11a: How does a ?real? alpha rely on his betas/pack/pride/group he?s responsible for? #UFchat
10:23 pm ShadowPhoenix32: i think alphas as reluctant heroes is way overdone lately. why not have an alpha that wants to be the hero, but always screws up? #UFChat
10:23 pm JulieeJohnsonn: it certainly is a challenge to work with these tropes and not make them all the same…but if you go to far, you’ve left the genre! #ufchat
10:23 pm StephanieLMcGee: @ShadowPhoenix32 That’d be interesting. #UFCHat
10:23 pm kjhatch: A10: The teacher/scientist/wiseman character who is usually just around to provide info/insight as needed. #UFChat
10:24 pm UF_Chat: @AlyxDellamonica Interesting – all loner types – isolated. Wonder if beyond leader, 2nd command, bottom pack members explored much. #UFchat
10:24 pm rcmurphy: A good leader knows how to delegate. Shouldering all of the responsibility would severely shorten his lifespan. #UFchat
10:24 pm UF_Chat: @JulieeJohnsonn Good point re leaving the genre – it’s a challenge for the writer – that’s for sure. (Xlnt!) #UFchat
10:24 pm SpiceBites: @UF_Chat Q11: Bran, again in PB’s series, only uses violence as last resort…but ppl know he will if he needs to #ufchat
10:24 pm sirayn: @Cameron_Haley many UFs are so loaded with gender/power weirdness that I would struggle to discuss UF w/o referencing power. #UFchat
10:24 pm Cameron_Haley: A11a: Presumably a “real alpha” issues orders to his pack/group and chews some ass if they aren’t followed. #UFchat
10:24 pm MonicaEPierce: @JulieeJohnsonn Seems to me the best books of the genre move beyond these tropes. #UFchat
10:25 pm UF_Chat: RT @JulieeJohnsonn: it certainly is a challenge to work with these tropes and not make them all the same…but if you go to far, you’ve left the genre! #ufchat
10:25 pm JulieeJohnsonn: @sirayn currently reading Carrie Vaughn’s Kitty series…can’t get enough of them right now! gotta go back to the library 4 more 🙂 #ufchat
10:25 pm SpiceBites: So loners would be reluctant heroes? #ufchat
10:25 pm Journeymouse: @ShadowPhoenix32 IRL, an alpha wouldn’t be reluctant – they want power. A beta would be a more honest choice of reluctant hero #UFchat
10:26 pm shadowflame1974: #UFchat Q11a Alpha must delegate issues, jobs to the rest of the pack. Cannot and should not do all alone. Gives pack sense of community.
10:26 pm sirayn: @Cameron_Haley UF allows for exaggeration of traditional gender roles, making male lead insanely strong, hyperprotective, etc. #UFchat
10:26 pm UF_Chat: @SpiceBites Bran – Marrok (sp?) – is one of the very interesting UF characters to me – esp in short stories where more explored #UFchat
10:26 pm Cameron_Haley: @sirayn I hear you…I suppose all the categorizing is one way to get beyond the weirdness. #UFchat
10:26 pm sirayn: @Cameron_Haley I rarely encounter UF heroines who are half as powered-up as their male counterparts. #UFchat
10:26 pm AnassaRh: Q11a: Alphas know everyone’s strengths, will delegate and form teams based on them. Know how to get X to unconsciously control Y. #ufchat
10:26 pm kjhatch: @JulieeJohnsonn What about a person having good leadership qualities but for some reason not treated as leader; still an alpha? #ufchat
10:27 pm UF_Chat: Q12: What part do Betas play? #UFchat
10:27 pm MonicaEPierce: @JulieeJohnsonn Move beyond the tropes and you begin to find craft. Those are the books I want to read and write. #UFchat
10:27 pm Cameron_Haley: @sirayn Read MOB RULES! :))) #UFchat
10:27 pm UF_Chat: Q13: What?s the definition of a Beta and what are the key differences between Alphas & Betas? #UFchat
10:27 pm SpiceBites: @shadowflame1974 The hero in Ilona Andrews’ Magic series does delegation very well #ufchat
10:28 pm DEcharacters: I would think that the alpha knows he can’t do everything himself, that it takes more than one to get the job done, so to speak #UFchat
10:28 pm annikkawoods: RT @MonicaEPierce Move beyond the tropes and you begin to find craft. Those are the books I want to read and write. <–Exactly. #UFchat
10:28 pm sirayn: @Cameron_Haley I’ve wanted to ever since I read the first chapter on #absolutewrite! but I’m so cheap + broke! must wait #UFchat
10:28 pm Cameron_Haley: A13: Sounds like alphas dominate others in the group, while betas are dominated. #UFchat
10:28 pm sirayn: just thought of an exception to my comment that UF heroines are always underpowered compared to male leads: Buffy. #UFchat
10:28 pm StephanieLMcGee: RE Q11 I think one way you can look at it is that the beta can evolve into either his own alpha or the alpha’s second-in-charge. #UFCHat
10:29 pm AlyxDellamonica: @sirayn It’s Buffy syndrome: create a kick ass woman & then to feel like she must need a man who’s not just equal but greater. #UFchat
10:29 pm UF_Chat: @SpiceBites I like that lion-like guy Curran – he does some interesting pack/leader things I really appreciate the exploration. #UFchat
10:29 pm SpiceBites: @UF_Chat Yes, I ❤ PB’s uf stories…some really cool ideas, getting away from tropes #ufchat
10:29 pm shadowflame1974: Q13 #UFchat Betas are the # 2 man. They are the alpha’s back up. often seen as muscle. Maybe comfortable with leadership but not want it.
10:29 pm ShadowPhoenix32: @DEcharacters i agree. being alpha is about trusting your pack, and letting them know they can trust you #UFChat
10:29 pm DEcharacters: the beta can be part of the foundation of the group, it takes more than a leader to have a pack #UFchat
10:30 pm Cameron_Haley: @sirayn When cheap/broke, support your local library! 🙂 #UFchat
10:30 pm rcmurphy: RT TheRealMrByrd: An alpha depends on his pack for that family dynamic. Like that support behind him. It’s the reason he is alpha. #UFchat
10:30 pm GraylinFox: RT @UF_Chat: Q13: What?s the definition of a Beta and what are the key differences between Alphas & Betas? #UFchat
10:30 pm UF_Chat: @Cameron_Haley I see different kinds of betas though – runner-ups/wannabes, 2nd in command – leaders who defer to Fem MC more. #UFchat
10:30 pm moonsanity: @kjhatch I think there is supernatural element to being an alpha, if they don’t have it, then they can’t be alpha to the pack. #ufchat
10:30 pm MonicaEPierce: Can’t the roles be in flux? Do we really need rigid definition? I prefer to see characters challenging each others’ roles. = growth #UFchat
10:30 pm sirayn: @AlyxDellamonica I love that comment – so telling. as if a heroine could never be satisfied with a mere equal. #UFchat
10:30 pm UF_Chat: Q13a: Can you give some examples of beta males in UF? #UFchat
10:30 pm rcmurphy: Reposting for a friend. He’s having issues. lmfao #UFchat
10:30 pm SpiceBites: OK, u guys & gals r inspiring me to create a beta readers can fall in love with 🙂 #ufchat
10:30 pm shadowflame1974: #ufchat good alpha/beta relationship is crustal to the group. if not, then there will be issues of who to follow.
10:31 pm AnassaRh: I see human betas as pacifiers, introspective, calm, quiet, etc. People who ‘get’ people but don’t lead them. #ufchat
10:31 pm ruthbeingruth: @AnassaRh I like the way @gailcarriger handles Betas. Someone may be a fantastic Beta & never an Alpha…and that’s ok. #ufchat
10:31 pm sirayn: @AlyxDellamonica I always assumed authors felt a male lead couldn’t believably be content except w/ a weaker woman. #UFchat
10:32 pm AnassaRh: I’d call early Xander Harris a beta, for instance. #ufchat
10:32 pm ShadowPhoenix32: i absolutely agree RT @DEcharacters the beta can be part of the foundation of the group, it takes more than a leader to have a pack #UFchat
10:32 pm jflamingo2: Q13 #UFchat Possibly, Betas are thought of as the sidekick.
10:32 pm JulieeJohnsonn: Betas = the smart adviser to the alpha. The one who provides a ‘cooler head’. Gives direction, guidance, supports rather than leads #ufchat
10:32 pm MonicaEPierce: @shadowflame1974 But issues of who to follow lead to interesting challenges for the characters & readers. #UFchat
10:32 pm sirayn: @MargoWest I’ve always wanted to read the vlad taltos books – keep coming across them on #tvtropes. thanks for rec! #UFchat
10:32 pm moonsanity: Q13 #UFchat I think a beta makes the choice to serve under his/her alpha or leave to find their own pack…or challenge.
10:33 pm AnassaRh: And yes, betas can be reluctant heros (step in when alpha gone) but not all will take the role. #ufchat
10:33 pm shadowflame1974: @MonicaEPierce #UFchat Yep, it depends on what kind of relationship you want in the story.
10:34 pm UF_Chat: Q13b: Betas often portrayed as ambitious 2nds. What happens when a beta male usurps the alpha ? is he automatically Alpha then? #UFchat
10:34 pm annikkawoods: Q13 Betas are there to support the Alpha, and to clean up the mess when he/she is done. They’re there to be best friend & confidante #UFchat
10:34 pm sirayn: @JulieeJohnsonn thanks for rec! heard good things abt carrie vaughn. there’s so much UF to read, I get a little dizzy. #UFchat
10:34 pm theworldamongus: @UF_Chat I hate to say this, but, Jacob Black, in Twilight, starts as a Beta Male if I am not mistaken #UFChat
10:34 pm AnassaRh: And yes, betas are back-up, but only if paired with an alpha. Betas would back-up alpha female, be supportive. #ufchat
10:34 pm AlyxDellamonica: @sirayn Now you’ve got me thinking about how we construct romantic pairings! #UFchat
10:34 pm JulieeJohnsonn: @ruthbeingruth That’s who I was thinking of 2! @gailcarriger Her beta has his own strengths to support the alpha. His own appeal 2! #ufchat
10:35 pm AnassaRh: RT @UF_Chat: @Cameron_Haley I see different kinds of betas though – runner-ups/wannabes, 2nd in command – leaders who defer to Fem MC more. #UFchat
10:35 pm theworldamongus: @UF_Chat I think that all depends on the character and the story. if it’s in the characters family blood, then yes, #ufchat
10:35 pm UF_Chat: Q13c: What about ‘retired alphas’? Imagine a pack of retired alphas (eg dinner with group of ex-Presidents) how would that function? #UFchat
10:35 pm MonicaEPierce: @shadowflame1974 True. Guess I want the challenging ones. LOL! #UFchat
10:36 pm SpiceBites: @ruthbeingruth Me too! Gail Carriger does a great job with betas 🙂 #ufchat
10:36 pm annikkawoods: Q13b it all depends on the beta’s personality. Q13c That would be interesting, but I personally don’t think Alphas ever retire. #UFchat
10:36 pm AnassaRh: Kat Richardson’s Quinton is a beta. Also, interestingly, the tech guy. And of course, Gail Carriger’s Prof. Lyall. #ufchat
10:37 pm AlyxDellamonica: #ufchat Other times the Beta’s roll is to be enforcer or bad cop, draw flak from the boss.
10:37 pm rcmurphy: “Retired” Alphas do not become Betas. They are held in a higher esteem unless they disgrace the Alpha title. #UFchat
10:37 pm shadowflame1974: @MonicaEPierce #UFchat sometimes the most challenging ones are two strong males who want to get along 😉 and don’t always see eye 2 eye
10:37 pm SpiceBites: @UF_Chat Pack of retired alphas…reminds me of the upcoming movie RED about ret secret agents 😛 #ufchat
10:37 pm AnassaRh: Yes! RT @ruthbeingruth: I like the way @gailcarriger handles Betas. Someone may be a fantastic Beta & never an Alpha?and that’s ok. #ufchat
10:38 pm shadowflame1974: @annikkawoods #UFchat I agree. They might step up to another function but never step down.
10:38 pm sirayn: @AlyxDellamonica glad I could prompt thought! lots of cultural attitudes + assumptions (many discomforting) are reflected in UF. #UFchat
10:38 pm annikkawoods: @AnassaRh I like Quinton. He’s a good example of a beta who doesn’t WANT to lead. But he’ll take the lead if he needs to esp. w/tech #UFchat
10:38 pm simonm223: Popping in a bit late. Q13c: Not necessarily. It is more about what drives them than what they do. #ufchat
10:38 pm GraylinFox: I’ve never written a character with Alpha, Beta, or Omega in mind. Just wrote them they way it flowed. #UFChat
10:38 pm UF_Chat: Beta boys in UF: Spike from Buffy & Kisten in Rachel Morgan series. both very powerful but somehow not quite alpha. Xlnt characs. #UFchat
10:38 pm JulieeJohnsonn: @UF_Chat ha! re: dinner. They’re all fighting over who gives the 1st toast! alpha is a personality…don’t ‘retire’ it! #ufchat
10:38 pm SpiceBites: I think some Beta personality is confident enough not to need power #ufchat
10:39 pm AnassaRh: RT @rcmurphy: “Retired” Alphas do not become Betas. They are held in a higher esteem unless they disgrace the Alpha title. #UFchat
10:39 pm UF_Chat: Q14: Are there characters you can think of who evolve into Alphas? #UFchat
10:39 pm sirayn: @AlyxDellamonica sometimes I wish for more “non-issue books”, in which real-world baggage is deliberately left behind. #UFchat
10:39 pm GraylinFox: Both made my heart go pitter pat. RT @UF_Chat: Beta boys in UF: Spike from Buffy & Kisten in Rachel Morgan series. #UFchat
10:39 pm annikkawoods: @GraylinFox That’s how I’ve always done it too. However they fall out is the play by play between the characters. #UFchat
10:39 pm simonm223: RT @GraylinFox: I’ve never written a character with Alpha, Beta, or Omega in mind. Just wrote them they way it flowed. #UFChat
10:39 pm sirayn: @AlyxDellamonica I imagine a happy world in which the male lead isn’t automatically a player and the female a virgin, for example. #UFchat
10:39 pm kjhatch: A11a: A ‘real’ alpha should look after his betas/pack/pride/group, keep them safe; can’t be an alpha alone. #UFchat
10:40 pm UF_Chat: Q15: Do you think names are ever a clue as to whether a character is truly Alpha or a beta (or another kind of male altogether)? #UFchat
10:40 pm AlyxDellamonica: @sirayn I’m all big with gender issues and ecofantasy, so no help there. The dynamics sit so deep within us, inescapable I suspect. #UFchat
10:41 pm UF_Chat: Q15a: Can you give some name examples of what would NOT be Alpha? #UFchat
10:41 pm AnassaRh: Q13b: I think he has to be recognized as alpha by the group. Until then, he’s just a usurper and will have trouble keeping control. #ufchat
10:41 pm MonicaEPierce: RT @GraylinFox: Ive never written a character with Alpha, Beta, or Omega in mind. …<< Yes. I want *real* people. #UFchat
10:41 pm simonm223: @sirayn See I don’t want my stories to be pure escapism. It’s important that literature try to communicate sth abt human experience #ufchat
10:41 pm kjhatch: A12: Betas can be anything from alpha-supporters to scheming usurpers. #ufchat
10:42 pm JulieeJohnsonn: @UF_Chat I’m thinking of Ben in C.Vaughn’s Kitty books…he’s a beta 2 Kitty at first, then becomes alpha as he co-leads Denver pack #ufchat
10:42 pm SpiceBites: Q15 JR Ward’s characters and Sherrilyn Kenyon’s character names jump to mind #ufchat
10:42 pm AnassaRh: Q13c I think it would probably head into pissing contest territory, like the stereotypes of jocks. I’m better. No, I’m better. #ufchat
10:42 pm MargoWest: @sirayn The female leads in the Taltos series are also in no way underpowered compared to the men #UFchat
10:42 pm kjhatch: A13: Beta is simply an alpha-class character that’s not currently in charge of that group. #ufchat #therecanbeonlyone
10:42 pm UF_Chat: I would chime in w I think different types of leaders/structures needed according to crisis too. Wars/disasters big testing ground #UFchat
10:42 pm rcmurphy: I have a wall of names for my 3 novels. I just realized most of them are Alpha names. More feminine names are generally Beta, though #UFchat
10:43 pm AnassaRh: Q13c: But it probably depends on how the alphas retire. If they head into mentor role, there’d be a different dynamic. #ufchat
10:43 pm sirayn: @simonm223 while I like pure escapism, I feel you can communicate sth abt human exp WITHOUT reinforcing oppressive gender roles. 😉 #UFchat
10:43 pm UF_Chat: And don’t forget the alphas-in-training – not always a YA subject BTW – would like to see it beyond the young up-&-comer. #UFchat
10:44 pm MonicaEPierce: @rcmurphy But what about dominant female characters? Do yours have ‘masculine’ names? #UFchat
10:44 pm Polenth: Q15: Omegas sometimes have silly/quirky names to set them apart. Neville in Harry Potter. #UFchat
10:44 pm sirayn: @AlyxDellamonica inescapable, I agree. I often catch myself doing exact same dubious gender stuff I complain abt in other writers. #UFchat
10:44 pm UF_Chat: Q16: What are some traits considered to be ?Beta? as opposed to Alpha? (physical, emotional etc) #UFchat
10:44 pm SpiceBites: Jeanine Frost’s Bones — a name that didn’t scream alpha to me #ufchat
10:45 pm rcmurphy: @MonicaEPierce I tend to name my dominant females after strong women in history & mythology. #UFchat
10:45 pm GraylinFox: RT @UF_Chat: Q16: What are some traits considered to be ?Beta? as opposed to Alpha? (physical, emotional etc) #UFchat
10:45 pm UF_Chat: Q17: If a geek/less physical guy = more confident/smarter/has trust of people/etc why is not an Alpha? Or is just not obviously so? #UFchat
10:45 pm sirayn: @AlyxDellamonica it’s tough to be 100% objective abt your own attitudes + writing. assumptions creep into subtext #UFchat
10:45 pm annikkawoods: Q16: Betas tend to be the more approachable, in my experience. They’re also the more emotional ones. Or so it looks like to me. #UFchat
10:46 pm kjhatch: RT @ShadowPhoenix32: @DEcharacters i agree. being alpha is about trusting your pack, and letting them know they can trust you #UFChat
10:46 pm GraylinFox: I use a random name generator and use the name that fits the charater… #UFChat
10:46 pm annikkawoods: Q17: People look to Alphas to be physically strong. I think it’s be cool to have an Alpha that was a geek, not as strong as others. #UFchat
10:46 pm sirayn: @simonm223 I think what I’m unhappy abt is that UF often inadvertently reinforces existing gender roles #UFchat
10:46 pm UF_Chat: @rcmurphy Interesting re the historical influence there. As kid, I always thought Elizabeth girly until learned some history. #UFchat
10:46 pm jimnduncan: think betas tend more toward passive action, reactionary, not confrontational, don’t want to lead. #ufchat
10:46 pm MonicaEPierce: @rcmurphy So the ‘alpha/beta’ name convention doesn’t apply to your females? (Just curious. I find naming interesting.) #UFchat
10:46 pm rcmurphy: Nerds are almost lone wolfs. Generally they are happy that way. They can revel in the given peace of a computer while aiding Alpha. #UFchat
10:47 pm SpiceBites: i tend to choose ordinary names, someone who could be the girl/guy next door #ufchat
10:47 pm shadowflame1974: Q17 #UFchat Geek could be alpha in a group of geeks, but we don’t think of that often
10:47 pm sirayn: @simonm223 as if UF authors + readers can’t even conceive of a world in which (for example) men don’t dominate women. #UFchat
10:47 pm GraylinFox: @annikkawoods Q17: I’m reading a series with a geeky, small, goblin as the reluctant hero… #UFChat
10:47 pm rcmurphy: @MonicaEPierce Not really. My Beta females get more mundane names. As do their male counterpart. #UFchat
10:48 pm DEcharacters: while uncommon, i think a female “pack” is possible #UFchat
10:48 pm annikkawoods: @sirayn My UF stories tend to have it the other way around. Where the females are the ones in charge. #UFchat
10:48 pm UF_Chat: @shadowflame1974 Came up last week how typical alpha would NOT be alpha in a geek group – would be so out of place… #UFchat
10:48 pm UF_Chat: S: UF girls have (historically) had a lot of ?issues? (eg violence) in relationships with dominant guys. #UFchat
10:48 pm rcmurphy: Giving Beta males feminine names is a generalization… (I hate when I resort to that, sorry) #UFchat
10:48 pm SpiceBites: think betas are quiet confidence, brains before brawn, try the nice way first before going all tuff, someone with honor #ufchat
10:48 pm annikkawoods: @GraylinFox Oh? Really? What series? I’m always on the lookout for new stuff to read. #UFchat
10:48 pm UF_Chat: Q18: Is that a given, normal issues amplified due to strength or just bad behavior/maladjusted people? #UFchat
10:49 pm AlyxDellamonica: @sirayn Yes! It’s programmed in so early. Easy to make worthy of heroine guy into stronger-than… the line is fine. #UFchat
10:49 pm JulieeJohnsonn: @sirayn I’m starting to think the best uf explores issues of gender, power, dominance, submission + challenges assumptions #ufchat
10:49 pm AnassaRh: Betas have geekier, older sorts of names, I think. Martin, Walter, etc. Someone called Hubert Fitzhugh? Not alpha. #ufchat
10:49 pm GraylinFox: Yep! RT @UF_Chat: @shadowflame1974 Came up lst wk how typical alpha would NOT be alpha in a geek group – would be so out of place… #UFchat
10:50 pm GraylinFox: @annikkawoods Goblin Quest, Goblin Hero, Goblin War by Jim C. Hines #UFChat
10:50 pm kjhatch: A13b: If a beta usurps the alpha but the rest of the pack feels betrayed, it’s an opening for a new different alpha to take over #UFChat
10:51 pm SpiceBites: @GraylinFox Jim C. Hines! Love his stuff! #ufchat
10:51 pm DEcharacters: @UF_Chat matriarchal packs is one example. also the females in a mixed pack vary in status and pairing. some more alpha than others #UFchat
10:51 pm JulieeJohnsonn: @AnassaRh I’d love 2 see a book that plays with uf genre tropes: a geek alpha would be great! #ufchat
10:51 pm annikkawoods: @GraylinFox Thanks! I’ll check them out (hopefully) next time I go to the library. #UFchat
10:51 pm annikkawoods: @JulieeJohnsonn I think you’re right. #UFchat
10:51 pm AnassaRh: Q16: Wanna-be alphas: aggressive, masculine, loud-mouthed, sometimes bullies, show-offs. #ufchat
10:52 pm SpiceBites: @UF_Chat matriarchal packs: have u read Lori Divoti’s Amazon stories? Pretty cool stuff. #ufchat
10:52 pm shadowflame1974: Q18 #UFchat it depends on the story. IF MC s have past issues then it will come into play. If not, then another format will arrise.
10:52 pm sirayn: @annikkawoods sounds fantastic! I wrote epic fantasy where protag + antag, 2 scariest people in the setting, both female. great fun #UFchat
10:52 pm annikkawoods: @JulieeJohnsonn What about a sensitive artist type who’s an alpha? 🙂 #UFchat
10:52 pm GraylinFox: @SpiceBites his Goblin series is currently occupying the top spot on my Nook 😉 #UFChat
10:53 pm UF_Chat: Q19: To flip the sides for a second – are most of the female MCs ?alpha? themselves? #UFchat
10:53 pm AnassaRh: Q16: comfortable-as-betas: quiet, more sensitive or perceptive, more egalitarian with others. Subtler ways to defuse situations. #ufchat
10:53 pm kjhatch: A13c: RE ‘retired alphas’ -I see it as kinda like tribal elders; respected advisers to the current alpha making day-to-day decisions #UFChat
10:53 pm GraylinFox: Oh yeah, there is a huge list somewhere of those names, old euro lists ;)RT @AnassaRh: Someone called Hubert Fitzhugh? Not alpha. #ufchat
10:54 pm rcmurphy: If a female is paired with an Alpha she needs to be one as well. Otherwise they tend to be swept away & you run into Romance Land. #UFchat
10:54 pm UF_Chat: Q19a: Alpha + alpha theoretically doesn?t work. There can only be 1. Is that why there are such issues between MC pairs? #UFchat
10:54 pm annikkawoods: @sirayn I’ve noticed my epic fantasy tends towards male dominated, while my UF definitely is more female dominated. #UFchat
10:54 pm SpiceBites: @GraylinFox I’m reading his The Stepsister Scheme 🙂 #ufchat
10:54 pm AnassaRh: @SpiceBites Ah, yes, Was answering two questions in one tweet, there. “Non-alpha name?” Hubert. #ufchat
10:54 pm shadowflame1974: @annikkawoods #UFchat you would have to define sensitive/artist type more. Not sure if he/she would work as alpha
10:54 pm JulieeJohnsonn: @annikkawoods yes! there’s got to be a way to make it work, to play with the tropes a little yet stay within the bounds… #ufchat
10:55 pm annikkawoods: Q19a: until the dynamics of the relationship are worked out, you’re going to clash. Compromise between Alphas is a good lesson. #UFchat
10:55 pm rcmurphy: Where an Alpha pairing runs into problems is the stupid notion that all Alpha males are asshats. #UFchat
10:55 pm AnassaRh: @JulieeJohnsonn I think I have one in the WIP, and a beta who’ll be alpha later on. Love messing with tropes. #ufchat
10:55 pm SpiceBites: @annikkawoods NK Jemisin’s The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms is a great epic fantasy with female protag #ufchat
10:55 pm UF_Chat: Q19b: What about ?alpha girls? (or strong lone females) and beta boys? Can it work? #UFchat
10:56 pm annikkawoods: @JulieeJohnsonn I have a bad habit of pushing the boundaries. Don’t know if my 2 UF WIPs can be called UF but I think they are. #UFchat
10:56 pm AnassaRh: @GraylinFox @Journeymouse Okay, if Hubert Fitzhugh lived in New York today, not London 100 years ago? #ufchat
10:56 pm sirayn: @annikkawoods probably reflects audiences! gender weirdness = even stronger in epic fantasy b/c fewer female writers + readers #UFchat
10:56 pm annikkawoods: @SpiceBites Yay! Another book to chase down. LOL <–Bookworm as well as a writer. 😀 #UFchat
10:56 pm SpiceBites: @AnassaRh WooHoo to messing with tropes! ;P #ufchat
10:56 pm shadowflame1974: @UF_Chat Some good alpha/alpha pairs work well. Mercy and Adam come into mind. #UFchat
10:56 pm UF_Chat: Q19c: Girls & their beta boys: what are some less appealing things about this relationship in UF stories? #UFchat
10:56 pm sirayn: @annikkawoods I mean, at least UF is often written for and by and abt women – not so much EF. #UFchat
10:56 pm rcmurphy: A confident Beta male can, in theory, stand up to his Alpha female counterpart. Men aren’t seen as weak, even a Beta. #UFchat
10:57 pm annikkawoods: @rcmurphy yes, and all alpha females are bitches. It’s fun to overcome those when you’re trying to make things work right. #UFchat
10:57 pm JulieeJohnsonn: thx to this #ufchat I’m ready to run off +create a geeky artist Alpha named Hubert who’s got bad hair just to prove it can B done!
10:57 pm annikkawoods: @sirayn I’ve notcied that too. #UFchat
10:57 pm AnassaRh: Q17: I think not obviously so. Geek alpha may not lead warrior clan, but he’d lead other things?schools, companies, organizations. #ufchat
10:57 pm SpiceBites: RT @rcmurphy: A confident Beta male can, in theory, stand up to his Alpha female counterpart. Men arent seen as weak, even a Beta. #ufchat
10:58 pm StephanieLMcGee: @JulieeJohnsonn LOL. I wish you the best of luck with that! #UFCHat
10:58 pm rcmurphy: @annikkawoods I have to admit, one of my alpha females is a raging bitch. But she is so much fun to write! #UFchat
10:59 pm kjhatch: @Polenth I’ve always felt Neville was the real Beta in HP. He was the “other one,” and was always one step behind Harry, supporting #UFChat
10:59 pm UF_Chat: Q20: Kick-ass girls have tradition of flying solo. What about beta girls? Where are they? Are there any in UF? Can you think of egs? #UFchat
10:59 pm annikkawoods: Q19c: Where the female has the male cowed. I’m sorry. That irritates me as much as the male dominates fem w/violence. #UFchat
10:59 pm JulieeJohnsonn: @annikkawoods yes, how do U know if U’ve gone too far + left the genre! Gotta work within the tropes not get rid of them entirely! #ufchat
10:59 pm SpiceBites: Found a Beta hero! Owen in Shanna Swendson’s Enchanted Inc.? #ufchat
10:59 pm annikkawoods: @rcmurphy I have one of those too. She is a lot of fun, especially since she KNOWS she’s a bitch. #UFchat
10:59 pm UF_Chat: Only a few more questions to go folks! We may run a few mins over but we’re very close to being done for today. 🙂 #UFchat
11:00 pm kjhatch: @Polenth I was surprised that while Neville led the fight at the end he didn’t get a more heroic finish overall. #UFChat
11:00 pm annikkawoods: @JulieeJohnsonn I write what I feel like writing. When I’m done with letting the characters tell the story, I’ll worry abt genre. #UFchat
11:00 pm UF_Chat: Q20a: What role would beta girls have? #UFchat
11:00 pm rcmurphy: @annikkawoods Mine knows as well. In order to survive in her family she had to become a bitch. Embrace the bitchy. #UFchat
11:01 pm annikkawoods: Q20: Most kick ass girls are kicking back after being dominated by men. I’ve yet to come across an Alpha fem who doesn’t have issues #UFchat
11:01 pm JulieeJohnsonn: @UF_Chat hmmm, I can’t think of a single beta girl. Good Q: Where are they? #ufchat
11:01 pm StephanieLMcGee: Gotta run. Thanks for a fun chat everyone! Hopefully I’ll be here in two weeks. Have to miss next Sat. #UFCHat
11:01 pm rcmurphy: Beta females tend to be the best friend, or only friend an Alpha female can run to. She tries to help return the Alpha to femininity #UFchat
11:02 pm UF_Chat: S: Been talking about guys mostly in a supporting role today? not as MC. (Here?s list of male MCs in UF: http://bit.ly/aKbXCs) #UFchat
11:02 pm AnassaRh: Q19: I think lots of female MCs are alphas, but won’t say “most”. Haven’t read enough UF. #ufchat
11:02 pm UF_Chat: Q21: What about male main characters? Are they mainly alphas, loners, something else? #UFchat
11:02 pm annikkawoods: @rcmurphy Mine spent 5 years living on the streets in a bad part of town. She had to become a bitch to stay alive. #UFchat
11:02 pm AnassaRh: I don’t think I’d call Rachel Morgan an alpha. Ivy, yeah, probably. #ufchat
11:03 pm SpiceBites: @UF_Chat Q20A: beta girl role: mirror? Thinking of Melissa Marr’s Wicked Lovely –the Winter Queen? #ufchat
11:03 pm GraylinFox: I don’t track genre, I just write. RT @JulieeJohnsonn: @annikkawoods yes, how do U know if U’ve gone too far + left the genre! #ufchat
11:03 pm kjhatch: A20: It’s an easy answer, but Faith was definitely Buffy’s Beta. #UFChat
11:03 pm annikkawoods: @JulieeJohnsonn I’ve got a decent Beta girl in one of my UFs. But I’m with you on not reading many books w/them in it. #UFchat
11:03 pm GraylinFox: Completely agree… RT @AnassaRh: I don’t think I’d call Rachel Morgan an alpha. Ivy, yeah, probably. #ufchat
11:03 pm UF_Chat: @rcmurphy What would you call Ivy in Rachel Morgan series? Hugely powerful but always defers to Rachel. (I sometimes wonder why) #UFchat
11:04 pm AnassaRh: @rcmurphy Agreed. Non-asshat alpha pairings = much better dynamic, fewer violent clashes. #ufchat
11:04 pm JulieeJohnsonn: @GraylinFox I’m always aware of genre because I like to play with the tropes…I write comedy mostly…its part of poking fun #ufchat
11:04 pm UF_Chat: @AnassaRh See my comment to @rcmurphy. I think Rachel takes on Alpha role often but not comfortable in it. #UFchat
11:04 pm rcmurphy: @UF_Chat I haven’t read the series, but if she’s defers to someone else she either doesn’t want to be Alpha or needs a push to be it #UFchat
11:05 pm GraylinFox: If I did that, I’d need more hair color! RT @JulieeJohnsonn: I’m always aware of genre because I like to play with the tropes.. #ufchat
11:05 pm AnassaRh: Q19b: Yes! I’m certain alpha girl/beta boy can work. Betas are supportive and loyal, right? And a good alpha will compromise. #ufchat
11:06 pm UF_Chat: Q21: (rephrase) Back to the boys – male MCs – are they mainly alphas, loners or something else? #UFchat
11:06 pm Cameron_Haley: I don’t think either Rachel or Ivy are “alphas” in the sense of being confident leader-types. They’re both more like real people. 🙂 #UFchat
11:06 pm SpiceBites: i always end up adding to the TBR pile after these chats 😛 #ufchat
11:06 pm shadowflame1974: @UF_Chat #UFchat I would hope to say the female MC are themselves.
11:06 pm AnassaRh: This too. RT @rcmurphy: A confident Beta male can stand up to his Alpha female counterpart. Men aren’t seen as weak, even a Beta. #UFchat
11:06 pm UF_Chat: S: In a recent #UFchat many people mentioned wishes 4 heroes (& heroines) to be geeky, virgins, socially inept, overweight, ?ugly?. #UFchat
11:06 pm sirayn: @annikkawoods dominant females don’t bother me as much b/c not reinforcing centuries of oppression + don’t have social approval #UFchat
11:06 pm kjhatch: Have to run, thanks for the chat all #ufchat
11:06 pm GraylinFox: I think Rachel is growing into the alpha role.. but Ivy had at for at least the first two books RT @UF_Chat: @AnassaRh @rcmurphy. #UFchat
11:07 pm UF_Chat: Q22: Why haven?t we seen many of those types of MCs or heroes yet? #UFchat
11:07 pm sirayn: @annikkawoods whereas a male character dominating a female has the entire force of the patriarchy behind him. #UFchat
11:07 pm annikkawoods: @sirayn Very good point. #UFchat
11:07 pm Cameron_Haley: A22: Because they don’t get published. #UFchat
11:08 pm SpiceBites: @UF_Chat Maybe they were tired of the too perfect –females that can kick ass and have all boys falling for them types #ufchat
11:08 pm UF_Chat: @Cameron_Haley Agree – think the real alpha in the series is Trent (is that his name)? Waiting for inevitable hook-up. #UFchat
11:08 pm annikkawoods: Q22: Because geeky/overweight/ugly don’t sell. #UFchat
11:08 pm rcmurphy: People read fantasy to escape reality. “Ugly” characters hit too close to reality. Some flaws are fine, but more than that, meh. #UFchat
11:08 pm UF_Chat: Q22a: Why is there such a tendency to make the MCs physically tough and good looking? #UFchat
11:08 pm sirayn: @annikkawoods a male character subjugated by a female is unlikely to be told he deserved it, it was justifiable treatment, etc. #UFchat
11:08 pm UF_Chat: @Cameron_Haley LOL (don’t get published) #UFchat
11:09 pm sirayn: @annikkawoods I guess with dominant male/inferior female dynamic, there is secondary victimisation by society as a whole. #UFchat
11:09 pm UF_Chat: S: Most UF relationships deal with the MCs getting together – new partnerships. #UFchat
11:09 pm annikkawoods: @sirayn Those are all good points. But it all depends on the culture too. If it’s a fem dominated culture, that can happen to him. #UFchat
11:09 pm UF_Chat: Q23: How would a mature alpha and kick-ass female MC relationship work? Would it? #UFchat
11:10 pm UF_Chat: Q24: Hero or anti-hero? What do you prefer? What?s the current reader preference do you think and why? #UFchat
11:10 pm Cameron_Haley: A23: Probably like Bill & Hillary. 😉 #UFchat
11:10 pm UF_Chat: @AnassaRh Maybe she’s emergent – part of her journey – like Harry Dresden. Don’t know – seems less mature in many ways. #UFchat
11:10 pm sirayn: @annikkawoods good point! haven’t seen one of those in UF so far, but still have a lot of reading to do. 😀 #UFchat
11:10 pm AnassaRh: I think beta girls could take on any beta male role. Second in command, subtler leader, in charge of support network, etc. #ufchat
11:10 pm annikkawoods: @sirayn Or if he comes from a family of domineering women. But I see where you’re coming from. Society emphasizes fem inferiority. #UFchat
11:10 pm rcmurphy: I hope the mature Alpha and kick-ass female thing works. One of my novels depends on it or I need to edit! lol #UFchat
11:11 pm UF_Chat: Q25: Do male writers write UF males ?especially alphas- diff. from women writers (some listed here: http://bit.ly/9DENnw)? How so? #UFchat
11:11 pm annikkawoods: @sirayn Heh…my werewolves are unique. They’re usually fem dominant packs. #UFchat
11:11 pm SpiceBites: @annikkawoods @sirayan: Usually female villains dominate/subjugate the men if its reversed…generally spking #ufchat
11:12 pm Cameron_Haley: A25: Some male writers write some male chars differently from some female writers. #UFchat
11:12 pm sirayn: @UF_Chat I imagine a mature alpha might mellow out + lose hyperaggression of youth, making him a more likeable love interest. #UFchat
11:12 pm UF_Chat: LAST Q: ?Uber-alpha? or not, what in your opinion makes a true urban fantasy hero? #UFchat
11:12 pm rcmurphy: Q25: I write my males a lot like some of my male writer friends. Dunno if I am an oddball or strangely connected to Alpha maled #UFchat
11:13 pm annikkawoods: @UF_Chat A true hero is someone who takes what they’ve been given & works w/it, not whine abt unfairness, & learns to work w/others. #UFchat
11:13 pm JulieeJohnsonn: thanks for a great #ufchat everyone!
11:13 pm rcmurphy: Renee can’t type today. *kicks the typo demon* #UFchat
11:14 pm UF_Chat: That?s a wrap for #UFchat today! We should have some very interesting alphas, betas and other UF bad boys to read soon! #UFchat
11:14 pm UF_Chat: Some resources on the topic of alphas, betas & related issues in UF tweeted next: #UFchat
11:14 pm AnassaRh: Q22: We haven’t seen our wishlist because we, right now, are the people writing it. We’re rebelling against what we’ve been given. #ufchat
11:14 pm SpiceBites: Enjoyed chatting! See u all next time…we will have a next time rt? #ufchat
11:14 pm Cameron_Haley: @UF_Chat Thanks for hosting another interesting chat! Later, y’all. #UFchat
11:15 pm UF_Chat: What Is It All About Alpha? or The Upside of Dark Heroes by romance author Suzanne Brockmann http://bit.ly/9SbkZ2 #UFchat Xlnt/funny #UFchat
11:15 pm UF_Chat: Related post on empowerment vs weaponizing in UF by Emmett Spain (@oldhauntsauthor) http://bit.ly/d2nndNUFchat #
11:15 pm AnassaRh: Q22: Also, to be somewhat cynical, publishing’s always a few years behind, and maybe thinks our wishlist “won’t sell”? #ufchat
11:15 pm UF_Chat: @SpiceBites Every Saturday at 3pm PST 🙂 Thanks for coming today! #UFchat
11:16 pm rcmurphy: Thank you @UF_Chat for a great discussion. I really enjoyed tearing the boys (and some of the girls) apart. #UFchat
11:16 pm annikkawoods: @AnassaRh Exactly. We’re writing what we want to read because we enjoy what we’re doing. #UFchat
11:16 pm UF_Chat: @Cameron_Haley Thank you! And much continued success to you! 🙂 #UFchat
11:17 pm UF_Chat: @AnassaRh He he – by the time you write and get them accepted they will. 😉 #UFchat
11:17 pm UF_Chat: Hairy Men & Testosterone by @StaciaKane http://bit.ly/ac7boO #UFchat
11:17 pm AnassaRh: Q22a: Wish fulfillment? Trying to get the book to sell? Though usually in UF, you need to be in shape if you’re going to survive. #ufchat
11:18 pm UF_Chat: Action Heroes by Carrie Vaughn (On the role of men in relation to action/kick-ass-women as MCs) http://bit.ly/bLz0he #UFchat
11:18 pm UF_Chat: Are Alpha Males in Danger of Extinction? (mainstream article Women?s Health Mag) http://bit.ly/vDxFwUFchat #
11:18 pm UF_Chat: Mainstream articles on ?how to be an alpha male?: Ask Men http://bit.ly/c1Bpmq Wise Geek http://bit.ly/dcAFFjUFchat #
11:19 pm UF_Chat: Mainstream articles on ?How to be an Alpha Male? cont. How to Become Alpha website http://bit.ly/bu9Um6UFchat #
11:19 pm UF_Chat: Announcement next ? if you want to promote your UF posts, book or anything else UF related now is the time! #UFchat
11:20 pm UF_Chat: Got a topic you want to chat about? Let me know! I?ll add it to the list & maybe even bump up the chat-date for it. ? #UFchat
11:20 pm AnassaRh: I can but hope! RT @UF_Chat: @AnassaRh He he – by the time you write and get them accepted they will. 😉 #UFchat
11:20 pm UF_Chat: If you wish to highlight a UF release by author here on Twitter from the last week ? let me know & I?ll promote it. Just @inkgypsy #UFchat
11:21 pm UF_Chat: I’m slowly making a list of UF authors on Twitter on #UFchat blog site. Please suggest more to @inkgypsy (me in regular tweet time) #UFchat
11:21 pm UF_Chat: @UF_Chat lights out. 😉 Transcript available on the #UFchat blog in 36hrs-ish, allowing for late comments. Just use the hashtag. #UFchat
11:22 pm AnassaRh: Yes! RT @annikkawoods: True hero is takes what they’ve been given & works w/it, not whine abt unfairness, & learns to work w/others. #UFchat
11:23 pm AnassaRh: I want to identify with and/or like the hero. I want them believable. I want to see them champion Good. #ufchat
11:24 pm annikkawoods: Thanks for the great chat everyone! Looking forward to next week’s, if I make it home from work in time. #UFchat
11:24 pm annikkawoods: @AnassaRh I don’t care if they champion Good so much as if I can believe in them & what they’re doing. #UFchat
11:26 pm elizabethkarr: @UF_Chat Learned a lot today listening. TY 2 U and all writers in the room. #UFchat
11:27 pm sirayn: pantpant. my little typing fingers are tired from keeping up with #UFchat. got absolutely no writing done, but belatedly #amwriting now.
11:27 pm rcmurphy: #UFchat was like running a gauntlet with cement shoes on today. I need chocolate ASAP!
11:28 pm inkgypsy: @elizabethkarr Thanks for coming today! Was busy & was a lot of thinking going on – which is really good. 🙂 #UFchat
11:28 pm AnassaRh: @annikkawoods Same. And by ‘champion Good’ I mean more ‘has morals and ethics, doesn’t support Evil” #ufchat
11:29 pm UF_Chat: Today was busy and a day for thinking hard in #UFchat – please keep commenting using hashtag – lots interested in the topic & transcript!
11:29 pm inkgypsy: Today was busy and a day for thinking hard in #UFchat – please keep commenting using hashtag – lots interested in the topic & transcript!
11:29 pm annikkawoods: @AnassaRh Ok, I can agree with that definition of ‘championing Good’. I’m not fond of goody two shoes types. #ufchat
11:29 pm annikkawoods: @sirayn LOL Same here. I still have a #amwriting goal to hit today. But #ufchat was awesome.
11:31 pm AnassaRh: @annikkawoods Nor am I. They’re too perfect, not real. #ufchat
11:32 pm sirayn: @annikkawoods yeah, it was fun! I’ve read #ufchat before but never participated. influx of new followers, as well. (hi there followers!)
11:34 pm annikkawoods: @AnassaRh I agree. I don’t like “perfection” unless it’s used as a fatal flaw in a protagonist/antagonist. #ufchat
11:40 pm simonm223: RT @sirayn: @simonm223 I think what I’m unhappy abt is that UF often inadvertently reinforces existing gender roles #UFchat
September 19, 2010
1:40 am dystophil: Aww, missed #UFchat and all kinds of other interesting stuff while I was asleep 😦
1:58 am rixshep: @inkgypsy Looks like #ufchat is going great! Sorry my new schedule runs right thru it, but happy to see it going so well! Congrats!
3:00 am inkgypsy: @rixshep Late comments using the hashtag always welcome though! 🙂 #UFchat
3:44 am inkgypsy: Mummified man – life size – snack for later for something even bigger… Delicious! http://bit.ly/bsA816 @JLCoburn #Halloween #UFchat
4:05 am judink: RT @MonicaEPierce: Can’t the roles be in flux? Do we really need rigid definition? I prefer to see characters challenging each others’ roles. = growth #UFchat
5:05 am Daylilie222: RT @inkgypsy: Mummified man – life size – snack for later for something even bigger… Delicious! http://bit.ly/bsA816 @JLCoburn #Halloween #UFchat
6:20 am inkgypsy: Oh my goodness! Gmail fox has an occasional Chinese Vampire foxes pic! *swoon* http://bit.ly/aHNgDQ #UFchat
6:45 am AnassaRh: I think I came up with a “missed” question for today’s #ufchat (next tweet; it’s long): (1/2)
6:46 am AnassaRh: Are you an alpha or beta personality? Do you prefer writing/readings alphas or betas? Why? #ufchat (2/2)
6:46 am AnassaRh: Okay, so three questions rolled into one? #ufchat
6:48 am AnassaRh: I got thinking tonight, see. Think I’m a beta, or proto-alpha. Can lead, delegate, etc. but gen don’t like lots of responsibility. #ufchat
6:51 am AnassaRh: Of my 5 lead chars in my WIP, I have: 1 happy-as-beta, 1 wannabe-alpha, 2 alphas, 1 loner. Chars in other stories usu non-alpha. #ufchat
6:52 am AnassaRh: Just wondering if there’s any sort of link between personality of writer and personality of characters. #ufchat
6:52 am inkgypsy: @AnassaRh Do I prefer writing/reading alphas or betas? I like a mix – I like to see dynamics b/w them. For MCs want development arc. #UFchat
6:54 am inkgypsy: @AnassaRh There’s a definite tendency between sibling placement & types. 1st borns tend to alpha for multi reasons. #UFchat
6:56 am inkgypsy: @AnassaRh Re personality of writer & types? No idea but notice many write what wished 4 selves but didn’t exhibit (generalization!). #UFchat
6:58 am inkgypsy: @AnassaRh Most writers admit there are parts of themselves in characters -some more than others. Alpha/beta may be diff level again. #UFchat
7:02 am inkgypsy: @AnassaRh Re WIPS, MCs have lot of me in them -all v. diff but none so far end up in charge/leading like I often default to. #UFchat
7:02 am AnassaRh: @inkgypsy Yeah, a mix is necessary, as is development arc. Not saying we only write one personality type. #ufchat
7:04 am inkgypsy: @AnassaRh Thinking as you ask may be because am trying to explore difficult/deeper parts of myself not so public? Not sure. Good Q. #UFchat
7:04 am AnassaRh: @inkgypsy Also yes, writers put themselves into chars (me too). Kinda of why I asked the Q. Hadn’t considered wish fulfilment? #ufchat
7:05 am inkgypsy: @AnassaRh I mean I prefer a mix in reading – if book only focuses on alpha & 2nd feels oddly empty to me. I think where is evryone? #UFchat
7:07 am inkgypsy: @oldhauntsauthor Am thinking on topics – did you follow #UFchat today? Lots of questions/gray areas worthy of essay/post exploration.
7:07 am AnassaRh: @inkgypsy MCs ? one will lead in my style, but not this bk. The other’s more my opposite. Have learned much about me, writing him. #ufchat
7:10 am AnassaRh: @inkgypsy I have the same rxn to alpha-focus books. I don’t identify. But then, mostly encounter bitches/jerks? #ufchat
7:11 am AnassaRh: @inkgypsy Also hadn’t considered sibling placement. I’m 1st-born, introvert. Sister’s more dominant, extrovert. Hmm. #ufchat
7:15 am oldhauntsauthor: @inkgypsy Have been following the chat – I’d be interested in writing about heroes vs. anti-heroes… what do you think? #UFchat
7:16 am inkgypsy: @AnassaRh I’m 1st born introvert but leader-type – always responsible & left to handle crisis etc Extrovert 2nd more go with flow #UFchat
7:17 am inkgypsy: @oldhauntsauthor Sounds good to me – seemed like that might end up a big discussion so didn’t ask all my her/anti-hero prompts! #UFchat
7:18 am inkgypsy: @oldhauntsauthor It will come up again when we discuss the noir influence in UF in a future chat too. #UFchat
7:18 am oldhauntsauthor: @inkgypsy Sweet. U happy for me to draw up a post over the next week and send it over to you for review? Do you have any word limit? #UFchat
7:21 am inkgypsy: @oldhauntsauthor Not particularly – you have a blog & know what people will read. I can always post Pt 1 & 2 if necessary. #UFchat
7:22 am inkgypsy: @oldhauntsauthor I also like to include images and white space to help people ‘travel’ through post, if that helps. 🙂 #UFchat
7:26 am oldhauntsauthor: @inkgypsy Cool. Could you DM me an e-mail address I can send the post to when I’ve got a cut ready for your review? #UFchat
7:28 am inkgypsy: @oldhauntsauthor Just did. 😉 Thank you! #UFchat
7:29 am oldhauntsauthor: @inkgypsy Ah, winner! Cheers : ) #UFchat
6:42 pm AnassaRh: @inkgypsy I’m like you?the Responsible One. Also headed school projects because no one else would. #ufchat

__________________________________

END OF TRANSCRIPT FOR SEPTEMBER 18th, 2010

Awesome discussion everyone! Thank you for participating and getting the gray matter churning. 😀

Feel free to add thoughts and resources during the week as you think them or find them – just use the #UFchat hashtag so I can find them and add them to the discussion & transcript.

The “Published UF authors on Twitter” page for the blog (check the link at the very top of the page) is slowly growing (there are a LOT of UF authors on Twitter!) and it’s and linked it to a list on Twitter for easy following.

If you see someone you think should be on there, there’s a good chance I just haven’t gotten to adding them yet BUT please always feel free to add suggestions by @-ing @inkgypsy and I’ll add them to the list ASAP.

Stay tuned to @UF_Chat on Twitter for countdown’s and updates.

See you next week!

Gypsy (@inkgypsy)

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